{Edited to add: The most interesting part of this post, in my opinion, is the discussion occurring in the comments section. Be sure to read through those and feel free to weigh in with your thoughts.}
Once a week Google Alerts delivers a list to my inbox of every place my companies, blog, website, etc have been mentioned on the web. I recently clicked on one of the links and it brought me to a popular bridal chat board that had a discussion happening about commissions collected by wedding vendors, specifically coordinators. Basically, a bride found out that her wedding planner had asked another vendor for a commission for the services they would be providing for the couple. My name came up in another bride's reply as a person who could potentially speak to this issue. So I am.
The inside world of weddings can be a convoluted and politically bumpy ride. If you want to remain uneducated and blissfully in the dark about this area of the industry, then stop reading now.
The Skinny
Kickbacks, which are often fancied up by substituting other names for them, are unethical. And they are very, very common in the wedding industry. Extremely common. Incredibly common. They happen all the time. Did I mention how common they are? Okay, just so there's not any misunderstanding and we're all on the same page here.
There is a myth floating around that if a planner has been in the industry for years, and has done a lot of weddings, that they are immune to these unethical ways. This is simply not true. You may be surprised to learn who is taking kickbacks or commissions from vendors as they often have a perceived (by the public, not the vendors) sterling reputation and may be charging on the higher end for their services.
Kickbacks, or commissions as they are more commonly referred to, are often paid by the vendor to the planner for the "privilege" of getting to work with them. Most often, the vendor will pay it because it essentially guarantees that the planner will continually refer them and send future business their way. It is a practice that is regarded by some as something they don't like but is "just the way things are done". Now, a smart vendor is not going to take a cut in their profit margin in order to pay the commission, so they will raise the price they are charging you for their goods or services by the 10% or fee amount that they will be paying to the planner. In this regard, the planner is being paid twice - by both you and by your vendors in theory, but by you both times in reality.
Hindsight is 20/20
Some planners are very quiet about this and some go ahead and state in their contracts that they may accept commissions. This is where it is imperative that you go over your contracts with a fine tooth comb prior to signing them. If there is any ambiguity as to what a clause means in layman's terms, ask before signing.
Not all wedding coordinators accept commissions and I think that in the stickiness and ugliness of this issue, it is important to remember that there are many coordinators who maintain high integrity and actually want the best for you. That said, there are a couple ways to know whether or not your planner charges vendors commissions. One is if they pressure you to go with any one particular company. If they know they are going to be increasing their income because certain vendors will pay their fees, they will insist you use them only. The second is simply to ask, both the planner and the vendors (assuming you have any lined up yet) if they do this. Whether or not you take them at their word and trust that they are telling you the truth is a matter of discernment on your part.
Moving Forward
So what do you do if you find out after the fact, as this bride did, that your coordinator was requiring commissions from your vendors? This is tough, and it really comes down to determining if they were in breach of their contract by doing so and if it is worth walking away from your non-refundable retainer because of it. In the long run, it may cost you less to cancel your contract and eat the retainer than it would to pay all markups that are covering the cost of commissions the planner is receiving.
Here is a brief synopses of some other industry practices that can and often cross into some seriously gray areas:
Preferred Vendor Lists
Most resorts and venues have a preferred vendor list that they include with their information packets. About 90% of these are paid lists, meaning that the vendors on there pay to be included. This is a gray area because it can technically be considered advertising. Often the transaction is recorded and the vendor is issued a receipt for their payments.
"Best Of" Lists
Most "best of" lists operate in a manner similar to preferred vendor lists. They are essentially advertising, and while the organization or publications promoting them may require that members be of a certain caliber, they are still only the "best of the best who are willing to pay". Some of the list sponsors disclose that they are paid listings and some do not. Almost all promote that they are by invitation only, and while some truly are, a space on some of the most prominent ones can simply be attained by a quick phone call to their sales department.
Awards
There are some awards that are legitimately awarded for quality and excellence, some are popularity contests, and some are more or less purchased by vendors who agree to advertise with the publication or organization awarding the recognition. I personally have no problem with a vendor using an award they've received for PR purposes, but I do think that the public needs to be better educated on which awards are akin to saying that you've been named Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2006 and which are true recognition for talent and accomplishments.
These practices aren't unique to Arizona or New York or Hawaii. In 2006, Becker, a photographer based in Southern California, blogged about these same things happening in his area. He gave me permission to reprint the article and I include it in my info packets that I give to couples so they can get someone else's perspective on the matter. I believe that when more people are educated about what is happening behind the wedding scenes, and when more people are able to make informed decisions, the better off the wedding industry will be as a whole.
Welcome to the wedding blog of Blue Orchid Designs! My name is Liene (and in case you're wondering, it's pronounced Lynn) and I am the CEO of Blue Orchid Designs, a wedding planning firm with consultants in Arizona, New York, and Washington DC. I am also the founder of Splendid Communications, an online media consultancy serving the wedding and event industries. Some of my favorite things include candlelit dinners and long walks on the beach. Oops, sorry! Wrong intro.
In all seriousness, we're glad you've stopped by our blog! We love weddings. We love people. And we really love pretty things. So we dish about all of the above here at the Blue Orchid Designs blog. Our blogging style is direct, pragmatic and fun. If the dress isn't your most flattering style, we'll tell you. We'll also be the ones wearing waterproof mascara on your wedding day because chances are very high that we will mist up when you walk down that aisle. So, pour yourself your favorite beverage and come join us! We are just a little bit addicting, if we do say so ourselves.
In all seriousness, we're glad you've stopped by our blog! We love weddings. We love people. And we really love pretty things. So we dish about all of the above here at the Blue Orchid Designs blog. Our blogging style is direct, pragmatic and fun. If the dress isn't your most flattering style, we'll tell you. We'll also be the ones wearing waterproof mascara on your wedding day because chances are very high that we will mist up when you walk down that aisle. So, pour yourself your favorite beverage and come join us! We are just a little bit addicting, if we do say so ourselves.
photos by Darby Elizabeth and Sloan Photographers
Tuesday, March 25, 2008
Posted by
Liene Stevens
Labels:
weddings
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33 comments:
I am so glad that someone finally had the ka-hoo-na’s to say this! So many brides think that as wedding consultants we refer people to them because we are making money off of those people – quite frankly, I tell ALL of my clients that my referrals to them are because I know that these people will offer them the royal treatment, and not because I make a penny off of them. I don’t feel it’s ethical on the consultants part to make a commission/kickback whatever from the vendor. IF the vendor wants to offer an incentive to the bride for using me, fantastic, give it to the bride in the form of a discount.
I know it’s common practice in Metro areas, but I don’t’ have to agree with it. You should use vendors that will be good to your clients, not be coerced to use them because they are buying your groceries.
Nuff’ Said, stepping off my soap box now.
Liene! What a great post. Thank you for being so frank about this subject.
Sometimes it makes me sad how dirty the wedding world can be...on a number of levels.
I have some questions, though, related to "best of" lists (these might sound nieve)...1) what about local television stations/magazines/newspapers where people vote/write-in their favorite wedding related vendor...in your opinon are these fixed usually or do they actually tally votes? and 2) what is your thought on Grace Ormand platinum list? It seems like a big honor to have but some of the vendors I just don't see what's so special while others I'm blown away with. 3) Any thoughts on WPJA? I've heard some photographers call it a joke while others proudly post their winning photos.
Miss Capitol Hill - you're not naive, things just haven't been out in the open that much so people just don't know. Here are some answers to your questions:
1) For the write-in votes, some are tallied properly and some are fixed according to wedding industry politics, advertising, etc. Some make sure people are only voting once and others don't really have any controls in place to that end. It varies with each specific entity.
2) The Platinum List is a paid listing. Some people aren't going to like that I am telling you that, but it is what it is. Some of the people listed rock and deserve to be on there and some have probably been filling in a sales person's quota. Some people are "invited" and some are on there because they called in and asked for info about it. I can say this because I personally know vendors from each side of that coin. I have also been asked to be on that list, and I turned it down because at the time (over a year ago), I wasn't comfortable with it because the sales lady knew nothing about my company and hadn't even looked at my website prior to calling. I haven't ruled it out for the future, but that is what it is - advertising.
3) Thoughts on the WPJA are mixed, and my opinions on it are from what I hear from photographer friends on both sides of the issue. Mark Eric, from trashthedress.com, is a person I have a great amount of respect for and he can probably answer those questions in a more educated manner.
Liene,Thank you so much for bringing this to light. As a professional, I too see this as completely unacceptable, while it seems that some people truly do take it as "part of the game." I create my own vendor referral sheets, and tailor them to the needs of each bride I have, based on their budgets, needs, and style. As a new planner (I've planned events for 5 years, but just started my own coordinating business) I was very naive to this concept. Now that I know there are people who practice this, I'm always sure to put a disclaimer on all referrals I give, clearly stating that I do not receive commissions, and find this practice highly unethical. Frankly, I think it gives everyone a bad name, and it's unfortunate that honest planners have to defend themselves because of those who choose to make a bad decision, not in their bride's best interest. What is your opinion on professional associations? In a way, I feel like a lot of these offer the same opportunities for sub-par planners (and vendors)to gain credibility with little to no substantiating information, for a fee. I would like to join one, but am concerned as to the amount of credibility it carries for the cost--do you have any in particular you would suggest?
Thanks for posting this. I have wondered if it's ethical to offer discounts to brides who are referred through a coordinator or if it's something I should shy away from. What are your thoughts?
Stella - There are associations that are worth their salt and those that are more or less a joke. ISES is a good one for planners to invest in. I personally did not feel the bridal associations in my area were a good fit for me or how I want to run my business.
Annie - I consider offering a discount as something different than taking a commission or kickback. For the most part, I think discounts are ethical and can be beneficial to the couples.
EXCELLENT post! Thank you so much for writing this. I cannot tell you how many times I am offered kickbacks or commissions. I ask those vendors to extend a discount to my clients. What's the difference? I'm not pocketing that amount....but client's are. And that is FAIR!!!!
One more thing....sorry..... I tell my vendors that the BEST gift they can give me is to refer me (if they liked the way I worked).
As always: great post, Liene!
Hey Liene, thanks for the mention- great write up! It takes guts to write something that exposes the inner politics of an industry- major kudos.
As for the WPJA, I'll have to be guarded with what I can say simply because the owner is very aggressive with threatening lawsuits. At one time, it was a very honorable organization, but the owner has brought about much embarrassment to the members as of late. I actually submitted a letter of resignation several months ago.
Let me just encourage brides to not be fooled by the word "association". The WPJA is owned by one person who basically makes all of the decisions. There is no board to decide who qualifies. He let's people in if he feels that they are "photojournalistic". He also kicks people out once he decides that they aren't "photojournalistic" any longer. In the past year, he has kicked out some of the most respected photographers in the industry because of "too many sepia toned images" or "too many camera aware poses". He kicked out the "photographer of the year" from last year. The photographer of the year from two years ago was pretty much forced out- he eventually resigned.
The contests are interesting. They are judged by a board of educators and sometimes, respected professionals. Although I have respect for the contests, It's hard to have respect for the WPJA as a whole.
The PPA (Professional Photographers of America) is an outstanding association of photographers.
If you have any more questions- e-mails are welcome. mark@markeric.net
A wonderful post, Liene, regarding an important topic in the wedding industry. I, like many other planners, want my clients to be confident in knowing that I'm making referrals based on whom I think will be a good match for them. Articles such as yours and Becker's will give brides and grooms the knowledge they need to determine this is the case.
Great post, Liene! Like you, I am very adamant about informing my clients about this issue. Even when I'm speaking with prospective clients...I tell them all to be wary of coordinators that "push" certain vendors at them. You have such a great way of telling it like it "T-I" is! I couldn't said it better!
awesome post!
Awesome, awesome, awesome post!!! Hats off to you for taking the huge step of painting the true picture... the good, the bad, and the ugly!
Great post Liene. I think it is imperative for an engaged couple to become educated about the wedding industry as much of it seems to be hidden behind some cloak of mystery and the couples often don't ask. with posts like this one, it goes a long way to opening up the industry to become more transparent.
To add to the point about associations, another plus to them is that if you are a member of a group like ISES, you are to adhere to their Code of Ethics which includes the following:
# Promote and encourage the highest level of ethics within the profession of the special events industry while maintaining the highest standards of professional conduct.
# Use only legal and ethical means in all industry negotiations and activities.
# Protect the public against fraud and unfair practices, and promote all practices which bring respect and credit to the profession.
Hi Liene, thank you for the incredibly informative post! After reading this post I felt compelled to comment from a “vendors” point of view. In the past I have been asked by event planners if I would offer some sort of kickback or commission to them for “giving” me their clients business and from day one I have declined; which has led to not receiving any business from these particular planners. However in the last couple of years I have established professional and ethical relationships with a handful of respectful event planners/designers who want to pass their clients on to me because I have earned it and their “kickback” is knowing their (our) client will be WELL taken care of.
I do have to disagree however with the statistical information regarding preferred vendors lists. I am only speaking for my company but with the exception of one venue I have worked very hard and earned the right to be on reputable venues “preferred vendors” lists. I have asked as well as been invited to be on these lists only after I’ve designed a number of pieces for clients holding events at these particular locations. I will say I have paid to be on one list. Although I did receive a steady amount of business from that specific venue it also came with their assumed right to dictate how I run my business and I have chosen not to participate in future publications of their “preferred” list.
For the past two years my company has been one out of three nominated for the “Best of” awards by a local wedding publication. I can truthfully say that I have not once paid for advertising in this particular publication and IF I were to ever receive a “Best of” or any other type of industry award I would like my clients, potential clients as well as my peers to be comforted by the fact that I would have earned it; not paid for it. Again, only speaking on behalf of my company and experience!
Rikki - Thanks for sharing your experiences, I really appreciate it. I do agree that there are preferred lists that consist of high quality people and I didn't mean to imply that all preferred vendor lists or awards are paid. The stats aren't just for Arizona. I too am on some lists because of the quality of my work, and I have not paid for those listings and I am grateful for venues that promote quality over potential revenue. I have worked with quite a few venues that do have paid preferred lists and it is frustrating when the site coordinators continually try to push sub-par vendors on my clients.
Hi Liene,
Thank you for such an informative and honest post. It seems that this kind of forthrightness is harder and harder to come by any more!
My question is about "gifts" from vendors. I am familiar with a wedding planning company that, while it does not accept monetary kick backs from their preferred vendors, they do frequently receive gifts of appreciation. Gifts like all expenses paid weekends in a beach condo or limo rides to the spa. On one hand it seems like a lovely gesture (and a fun treat!), but on the other, it seems really like a non-monetary kick back and frankly, motivation to keep referring clients to specific vendors. What are your thoughts about this?
Thanks again for your dedication to the betterment of this industry! You are greatly appreciated!
Robyn - I think gifts of appreciation can be in a gray area. I personally would be uncomfortable with super lavish gifts as I feel that is the equivalent to a cash kickback. A bottle of wine, bouquet of flowers, or something small as a token of thanks is more acceptable - but that is just my opinion.
I received an email about bridal associations and how they relate to this issue so I wanted to clarify: paying membership dues to an association is very different than paying a commission or a kickback to a vendor. There are several forms of associations: international, national and local. Some vendors form mini-associations and the membership fees go towards a shared office or meeting space. They may encourage you to use other members, but it is usually not mandatory. I generally don't have an issue with these types of arrangements.
Thank you for posting on this topic! The comment section reads like a great, informative forum discussion. It's interesting to hear about it from a Phoenix-based wedding vendor because, although I have read and heard about kick-backs with planners in global photographer forums, I haven't run into the practice myself. I actually had never heard of preferred vendor lists at venues as being paid listings, but I also haven't ever approached a venue to be on their list so maybe it is more common here than I thought?
Regarding the question about the WPJA, Mark's comments do reflect the general consensus of the photographer community. I used to be a member, and it was a great place for brides to find me and other photographers with a photojournalistic style when it was an emerging style, but the organization seems to have changed a lot over the past couple of years. There are still great photographers that are listed on the site, but there are many great ones that are no longer listed for various reasons that Mark mentioned.
Liene,
Great topic!
The association by which I am certified actually has as one of it's stated ethics is that members do not participate in kickback or commission programs.
I know I am a rare breed in my market (Las Vegas) and one of few that does not accept commissions or double dips or jacks up their pricing.
I probably do less business than others because of it, but I also know that I can sleep at night.
My clients and my business partners respect me because I am up front & transparent and know I play fair.
As for "preferred vendor lists" & "top ten" lists, I can't afford to be number 1 or even #5 on most of these lists so I'll just stick to earning my place by doing a fabulous job.
Liene, thank you for sharing this information, it has been a real eye opener for us. When my fiancée and I decided to use a wedding planner to coordinate our upcoming Hawaiian wedding, we had no idea and sadly didn’t do our homework.
We were happy with all of our coordinators services except her preferred photographer. The problem is that she will not allow us to employ another directly.
Now I wonder what kickbacks she is receiving from other vendors.
We are paying for her services by the hour.
Looking back over the fine print this is not stated anywhere. Though, her website states that her company is a ‘full-service’ company.
Does this mean she has exclusive rights over all vendors at our wedding?
We really don’t want to compromise, what should we do from here?
Any light that you or anyone could shed on the matter would be greatly appreciated.
Steve
Hi Liene: Just happened on this post- BRAVO! As a small wedding planner in Pa, it is really hard to compete with the "big guns" of this industry- most of whom are the subjuect of your post!! My work speaks for itself and my referrals are always based on my experience with a vendor. I appreciate your insight into this business and often read your blog for validation. Never having been on any "platinum lists" or reality TV, it is very hard to survive in this business. I wish more brides knew the value of a good planner and why the biggest may not be the best. Thanks for the post!
very interesting!! Thanks for posting this :)
Thank you so much for this post. I am a reputable planner who never accepts kickbacks or referral fees. It is refreshing to hear that so many other planners share my beliefs.
Very interesting topic. I as a florist would never work with a planner that would want a kickback. I work with some amazing planners here in Tampa. You have the right to pick the vendors you want to use. I understand them having recommended vendors, but shouldn't force you to use any specific one on their list. If they refuse to allow you to use the vendor you want to use then this isn't the planner for you. I do belong to a professional bridal consultant association, but for me it's a way to network with other professionals not kickbacks. Liene, Thanks for sharing these practices.
Thank You for posting this!
The Knot has a system for a paid special designation like the Platinum List and it makes me sooooo mad to see it displayed in my competition's store windows....It's not honest advertising. My 'Wedding Wire Rated' and 'People Love Us on Yelp' decals were earned by real Good Reviews from Customers and I didn't pay for them.
Wedding Vendor Advertising and the cost of staying in business is expensive enough without having to deal with this kickback madness!
liene, this is an absolutely awesome post. it's so refreshing to know that in the midst of all this wedding planning stuff, there's truly someone looking out for us brides and grooms. it's hard enough for us to plan weddings, why are people making it even harder by doing such unethical practices?? i hope one day, all the bitter people reading this will realize how scummy they are for doing this to brides and grooms. thank you liene... you're one of the great ones!
Great post and glad to see you are on the right side of the issue!!!
Glad to see so many people on the same side of this issue as me. :)
Fabulous post! Until recently I was (admittedly) pretty naive about this. I went to a networking event in Boston a couple months back and in talking to some vendors learned about venues taking payment to be on their preferred lists. It wasn't a little fee either but hundreds of dollars. My sister-in-law was w/ me as well and equally shocked. Since then, she has been encouraging me to blog about it so brides are aware but I was nervous in how to word it as to not stir the pot too much. You've done an amazing job and I'll be sure to point brides and grooms towards this post! Thank You!
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